You can also listen to this podcast at iono.fm.
advertisement
Continue reading below
Download the free LiSTN audio app on Google Play, Apple, or here.
JElemy Muggs: Transparency International has released its annual Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) report. The CPI is the leading global indicator of public sector corruption, providing a comparative snapshot of around 180 countries and territories each year, but South Africa is not hiding on its laurels.
Read: Corruption in SA hits record low – Transparency International
The first person on the program is Wayne Duvenage from Undo Tax Abuse (Outa). Mr. Wayne, what do you think are the main factors behind the index decline?
Wayne Duvenage: Thank you, Jeremy. This is a measure of perception, but as we all know, perception is reality and these are very accurate.
The sad thing is, and I think this is what it's all about, we've come out of state capture, we've come out of the Zondo commission, and we don't see any change. In fact, we see the situation getting worse, especially at the local government level.
So the public perception of South Africa is that we are going backwards, and that is sad. Although the new government of Cyril Ramaphosa took office with an anti-corruption stance, nothing has changed. It looks like the situation is only going to get worse. So our perception is that we are going backwards, and we are going backwards when it comes to dealing with corruption, as we can see from the experience of what is happening in Outa.
Jeremy Maggs: There was a lot of optimism after Wayne and Zondo. Why do you think there is no change? Why are we still spinning our wheels here?
Wayne Duvenage: Well, it's a big problem, but I think it all stems from a lack of political will. If we don't challenge this from the top, it won't happen. It is not difficult if the company president and below take strong leadership. We have the structures and mechanisms in place, but it's all just lip service. We need to provide them with resources.
read:
Why does it take so long to prosecute state capture cases in the Southeast?
State capture scorecard: R500 billion looted, zero assets recovered
So the NPA (National Prosecuting Authority), we have always said, if you give them an extra R10 billion, they will give the country another R100 billion, because we must begin arresting those involved. As a government, we need to work with civil society so that we can point it in the (right) direction.
The amount of corruption that we are currently uncovering in various Setas (Sectoral Education and Training Agencies) across the country is alarming and this continues to this day.
So there are national regional issues, and there are state and local issues as well. The country, the government, is just not addressing these issues. Transparency in relation to procurement, Eskom, Transnet, this is really a matter of a lack of political will and, as a result, a lack of the necessary resources to tackle this issue.
Jeremy Maggs: Do you think corruption is manifesting itself in other ways and are there new targets?
Wayne Duvenage: Well, that's right. It's showing up everywhere. I was just talking on the show last night about the recent arrests of people who were selling driving licenses, and you can talk to anyone and no one will get a driving license unless they pay an extra R2,000 to someone in power. I have no intention of doing so. test station. That's it. That is becoming our reality. It's as if young people and people in this space are thinking, “This is how business is done, this is the normal world.” But that's not the case.
Listen: Prosecutor-led investigations are key to SA's fight against corruption
advertisement
Continue reading below
So when it becomes endemic and permeates our society, we are left in the dark. We must eradicate this behavior. But again, without an empowered criminal justice system and proper leadership and police services, we will struggle with this issue.
Jeremy Maggs: And, very unfortunately, we are currently located in the category of so-called flawed democracies, and inevitably this image on the world stage is, if not already, in international relations. This will have a major impact on overseas investment.
Wayne Duvenage: No, it definitely will happen. Given what we've been through, history, the beginning of a new democracy, if people see that things are going backwards, we're really just sending the wrong signal, and people are I would hesitate to invest or support here. If we're going to develop this country and send out signals like this, we're going to take it to where it needs to be. That is our reality and it needs to change.
I sincerely hope that everyone will participate in democracy in the next election. They have a power that should never be underestimated.
Jeremy Maggs: Digging a little deeper, the Africa Organized Crime Index shows that high levels of corruption, particularly in the public sector, police, education and health sectors, are most affected. Is there any way that South Africa can address corruption in these important sectors, or do you think corruption is so entrenched and pervasive that it needs to be integrated into daily operations?
Wayne Duvenage: No, I never think it's too late. I can deal with it. It has to be dealt with. Going forward, we will need a combination and collaborative approach between business, civil society and government. There are a lot of good people in government who don't want this to happen, so we need to stamp it out. Jeremy, that's a 1% problem. There are a handful of people who are hijacking the system and bypassing the criminal justice system.
read:
SA’s response to public sector corruption remains the same as it was 10 years ago [Jan 2022]
Corruption 'endemic' in all three branches of government: PSC [Dec 2022]
We can and must stop this. We should never sit back and say to ourselves, “This is our new reality, this is our new normal, let's live with it.'' It will be a sad day for this country.
Jeremy Maggs: That's certainly true. But, Wayne, the good people you say are often bullied, exhausted, and demoralized.
Wayne Duvenage: I agree. Just this morning (I was) meeting with a whistleblower who went through the same process that many people go through. They are ostracized, fired and kicked out on trumped-up charges, and their lives are ruined as a result. We must continue to do more to keep whistleblowers safe and collect as much information as possible.
But again, if the government isn't willing to do more to protect whistleblowers, then they're not putting their money where their mouth is and are doing the best they can. We talk about it, but in reality it's not true. Frankly, it doesn't actually do anything.
So it's up to civil society and we appeal to big business to join these fights, join these challenges, stop being afraid of governments and take a stand. There are many good companies out there, but if the government is not willing to fight anti-corruption, it is up to the people to fight this battle, so companies need to support civil society's efforts to fight corruption.
Jeremy Maggs: Thank you, Wayne Duvenage.
